Concealed Carry Common Sense & Courtesy
Frank Borelli
Editor-in-Chief
Officer.com
While I have typed about this particular topic before, I feel the need to do it again. I was recently emailed a document from the Arkansas Department of State Police. It details the Concealed Handgun Carry License Rules. In section 3.2 it requires any CCW holder to surrender said license “upon request for identification by any law enforcement officer.”
As a retired police officer I consider myself to carry a “cop’s attitude” about this. OF COURSE I want to know if anyone I’m dealing with is carrying a gun, legally or otherwise. I would NEVER expect a badguy to volunteer the information (although a couple did in my time on the street) and I would never understand why any law abiding citizen would be bothered by this outlook. If you have no mal-intent, then why would you object to showing your permit?
On the other hand, as a strong proponent of the 2nd Amendment, and being all too aware of how some law enforcement administrators are distinctly anti-gun (in civilian hands anyway), I know that there are policies out there that aren’t overly friendly to law abiding citizens who happen to hold CCW permits. Where there are cases of harassment or, at best, inconvenience to the CCW holder, I can understand that they might not want to volunteer the information.
Let me try to share what, to me, seems like a simple and logical outlook based on common sense.
In my years of teaching officer survival (and I’ve been at it for about two decades now), I’ve tried to impress upon all police officers the need to avoid misunderstandings on traffic stops. “If you get pulled over,” I tell them, “give the officer your driver’s license, vehicle registration, proof of insurance, and police identification immediately.”
Many officers felt that I was instructing them to essentially ask for professional courtesy. I have, in fact, been pulled over and produced those documents just to have a state trooper look down at me and ask, “Did you give me your police ID to get out of the ticket?”
My reply was quite honest when I said, “No, sir. I gave you my police ID so you’d know I was carrying a gun. I’ll sign any ticket you write but I don’t want to get shot over a misunderstanding that started with me speeding.” Just for the record, I’ve had 3 speeding tickets in 28 years of driving. One in 1980; another in 1990; and another in 2000. In 2010 I’m just going to go to the state police barracks and ask them to get it over with.
Now, does that State Trooper - or any other law enforcement professional in my state - have a legal requirement to know that I’m carrying or even that I’m a cop? Nope.
If all I give him is my license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance, have I complied with the law of my state? Yep.
If I don’t give him my police ID and there is a misunderstanding when he realizes I’m armed and I end up shot, whose fault is it? MINE.
While I certainly understand the outlook of the folks who say they don’t want to surrender their CCW license; that they feel it will only be used as a harassment tool; that their rights are being violated if they have to identify themselves as legally carrying a gun, I say this: it’s better than getting shot!
Common sense must rule the day. Those in favor of Shall Issue laws have fought too hard for too long to let misunderstandings or pettiness get in the way of progress. PROVE you mean the police no harm by volunteering the information. Might it cause you grief and aggravation? Yep. Is it better than being shot? Oh, heck yeah. Can the cop ever claim you tried to hide something? Nope. Well, he can try… dash cams are great though.
Let’s face it: in today’s world of terrorism, every legally armed law abiding citizen is a blessing in our country. Each and every one of them is a potential soldier on the front lines against crime and terrorism at home. We, as law enforcement professionals, need to respect that and honor it as much as we can without sacrificing any measure of officer survival. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask, in return, that citizens pay us the respect and courtesy, recognizing the regular dangers of our job, of identifying themselves when they are legally carrying a firearm.
If any of you readers regularly ILLEGALLY carry a firearm, please, courteously and respectuflly and without any sign of threat at all, advise the police officer of that too.
What do you thinK?
In order for a Police Officer to stay alive, they must treat every traffic stop as a potential life ending event. They cannot do otherwise. This I understand, but at the same time that training and attitude has created just what they want to avoid. As you stated, the Troopers first response to your ID was that of suspicion. Between two police officers your scenario is the correct way, but what about the civilian? If I was pulled over and showed the Police Officer my permit, would that not make him more suspicious? I really don’t think the officer would relax, he would be more anxious and more prone to a harmful reaction. If I make any comments that he does not like, he can, with the knowledge I have a weapon assume I am intent on using it. If the officer has no knowledge of my weapon and I give him no reason to pat me down then my chances of survival are greater. If the situation does lead to a search, I think then would be the correct time to hand over the permit. What do you think?
Todd;
You’re right. Police officers must treat every traffic stop as an “unknown risk” stop until it’s over. That said, I think that if only one party is suspicious of the other it makes for a safer encounter. If you show your permit to an officer you become more of a known quantity. He’s pulled you over for whatever traffic violation or equipment failure; he’s approached and made contact; you’ve provided all necessary documentation (which some drivers never manage to do) AND you’ve alerted him to the fact that you are LEGALLY carrying a handgun. In my world - and I know not all cops think as I do - you’ve:
1) cooperated by providing documentation;
2) advised me of a situation that may potentially affect my safety;
3) shown that you have nothing to hide and are willing to cooperate with the legal process of the traffic stop encounter.
Does this mean the officer is going to relax, smile and thank you for being a wonderful person? Absolutely not. Depending on his experience and his outlook on CCW in general, it’s likely to raise his antenna a bit more and he’ll be acting with greater caution. I still don’t see how that is a problem to any law abiding citizen.
You say, “If I make any comments that he does not like…” and that raises my curiosity. Unless you are uncooperative or start making accusatory statements, what can you say that he won’t like?
One of the biggest challenges I ever encountered as a police officer was the “highway lawyer” who refused to be cooperative because he was sure he knew more law than I did. Given that I worked around DC virtually all of my civilian police career, this often included an array of lawyers. The reality was this: I knew my job. I was going to do my job. I was courteous and professional and all that was ever required was cooperation. If a person is pulled over and feels that they have been:
1) stopped illegally
2) targeted unfairly
3) accused improperly
then we have courts to determine who is right. On the side of the road is the wrong place. It’s ALWAYS going to be a no-win situation for the citizen. The moment they attempt to resist or fight the police officer, they’ve broken the law. There is a LEGAL way to counter any illegal or unprofessional actions on the part of the police officer and arguing / fighting on the side of the road is not it.
That all said… unless you intend to fight the police, I still don’t see how it is in anyone’s best interest to keep your legally carried weapon a secret. Once that secret comes out THEN the officer is going to be suspicious. And in those states where laws/rules of carry are made that REQUIRE you to surrender that CCW license with your ID, if you fail to then you have intentionally violated the law and now put yourself in the position of either receiving the appropriate charging document or being subject to arrest. At that point you’ve hidden the fact you’re carrying; proven you don’t want to cooperate with the law; and are now a high risk / threat to the officer.
Which way would you prefer the encounter to go?
Frank you got it in one, again. Let the officer know that you are carrying legally - and if he acts inappropriately after gaining that information, cooperate and take it up later, in the proper venue. Yes, you may get through the stop without the officer ever knowing that you are armed but do you really want to take the risk of having a loaded weapon pointed at you if he/she does notice your concealed weapon?
I still have some confusion about the laws where I live in Arizona. Here we are allowed to open-carry unless the property owner objects to it and in many cases I have unloaded my weapon and put it in the trunk of my car before entering their property. My confusion comes in with open carrying while in my car and especially what to do if pulled over. I have been told to place the weapon on the dashboard of the car and various other stories. I want to FULLY comply with the law and of course I DO NOT WANT TO GET SHOT. I plan to obtain a CCW this summer and do believe you are right on with your statements. Any insight would be helpful and much appreciated Frank. Your timing is impeccable both with your blogs and your speeding tickets I might add.
Robert
Robert:
I’m not expert on AZ law so I’m not even going to attempt to answer. I’d recommend that you visit your local state police / trooper baracks and ask for guidance. If you’re uncomfortable doing that, go to a local gun store or seek out a personal defense / CCW licensed trainer.
That said, if I was the cop and I walked up to the car to see a gun on the dashboard I’d be far more uncomfortable than walking up to find a man with both hands on the steering wheel with his credentials in his left hand. 92% of the population is right handed. A reach to the dashboard doesn’t take long. Action always beats reaction. If I saw the gun on the dash I’d be likely to get mine in my hand so that I’m ahead of the curve. Keep it in the holster, snapped in and with your creds in hand would be my advice… but check the AZ law and make sure you’re in compliance.
Let’s be serious (to those commenting). With fourteen years of experience as a patrol officer, detective, detective supervisor and operations lieutenant, I”ve have an ample opportunity to come face to face with citizens who are carrying CW’s. We preach “know your enemy”! A citizen showing me a CWP (and/or an officer showing his ID), letting the “little guy” inside my head know exactly who and what I am dealing with is exactly the insight I wish I could have at every call I deal with. I have had citizens ask me what they should do if pulled over while carring a CW (with permit or legal carry in vehicle) and I have suggested they exhibit their CWP to the LEO and/or advise of the weapon immediately upon contact with the LEO. That information along with my training will dictate how I handle the traffic stop from that point forwad from an officer safety standpoint. With regards to an officer showing his ID at a traffic stop, we all know we would hope for a little courtesy (don’t lie!) but it’s the LEO’s who “flash” the badge with an attitude and an attitude of entitlement that ruins it for everyone.
CONCELAED CARRY AND COMMON SENSE
Hi Frank,
I realize the purpose of this article(well written) is to address cop safety for both on-duty and off duty cops.
But what is the reason or purpose one law enforcement officer would write another law enforcement officer a traffic ticket/traffic citation, when the on duty trooper/officer/deputy has descretionary powers(in ALL 50 states of USA)?
traffic violations are not felony/misdeameanor crimes. So why would professional courtesy NOT be extended?
The old saying, “You stand at attention for my funeral(Line of Duty Death), but you write me a ticket benefits no one”.
I have been a cop for more than 25 years, and have NEVER experienced any type of problem or traffic ticket/citation issued to me by another law enforcement officer. A courtesy warning NEVER hurts any cop!
Gordon; you are correct.
Ed; I agree 100%. That said, non-LEO folks read this site too and heaven forbid I ever write something that just assumes professional courtesy. In the context of officer safety where CCW is concerned, I didn’t see the need to call particular attention to the obvious benefits of professional courtesy. That said, we all know officers who EXPECT to get away with everything and some who cross WAY over the line.
As a matter of record: to avoid being a hypocrite: I never wrote a ticket to someone who failed to stop at a stop sign as long as they slowed down to insure it was safe. I never wrote a speeding ticket to someone (unless they were a flaming jerk) who was going less than 15MPH over the speed limit.
I slow down at stop signs. I exceed the speed limit. Again, if I get pulled over the officer chooses to write it, while I might be disappointed, I certainly won’t complain and I definitely don’t want to get shot over a misunderstanding.
I really don’t understand why some officers and agencies are opposed to law abiding citizens carrying. The majority of citizens are pro law enforcement and are happy to show credentials and be cooperate. There have been times, on an investigative stop, that I have removed the violators weopon from the vehicle, unloaded it, checked for stolen, and, following my investigation resulting in no arrest, have put it back and asked them not to reload until I was gone. If we outlaw or discourage the public to carry, then only the perps will be armed. The only thing I think needs to be put in place before anyone can carry outside the home is some kind of mandatory training and qualification course.
I agree with Frank, don’t put it on the dash or have it laying unholstered on the passenger seat..and PLEASE, if its in the glovebox, do not start reaching for your registration/insurance BEFORE letting the officer know there is a gun in there.
Frank:
Colorado CHP/CCW permit holders are not required to inform law enforcement that they have a CHP/CCW permit. This is because every motor vehicle that is registered to the CHP/CCW permit carrier in the state of Colorado has the permit carrier’s name and permit information attached to the vehicle. Actually, when the LEO calls in the license plate information he/she is informed that the driver has a CHP/CCW permit. Unfortunately, if my wife is driving my vehicle the LEO will be receiving incorrect intel from his/her dispatch agency. Conversely, if I am driving my wife’s vehicle the LEO will still be receiving incorrect intel because my wife does not have a CHP/CCW permit. Yes our vehicles are not registered to each other.
If I am not in my vehicle and an LEO asks for my drivers’ license the LEO will get the same information… that I have a CHP/CCW permit. Before Colorado started attaching CHP/CCW permit information we were considered as a person of interested.
At first I was bent about my CHP/CCW permit status being attached to my personal vehicles and my drivers license but now it no longer bothers me. Why? Because LEOs have for their own safety (as well as mine) a right to know about my status CHP/CCW permit status.
Finally, when I carry, my weapon is on me concealed, not out in the open and not in a glove box. When my weapon is on me I have control of it. I won’t be stolen should my car be stolen and if someone won’t be startled to find the gun in a glove box or trunk. Producing a my CHP/CCW permit at the same time I submit DL/Registration?Insurance is a good idea. Besides, in Colorado you can be charged for not having your CHP/CCW permit if you are indeed carrying.
Frank:
Nice, in Ohio CCW holders are required to inform officers upon initial contact, but they often do not, there taught here that only if they are carrying a weapon should they ID, as for officers, most here require off duty carry, mine does, and in the rare occation I have been pulled over, I make sure the brother LEO knows I’m carrying a weapon, I think this is something that really needs to be taught to academy classes, LEO survival is more than watching out for the bad guys…
Be safe-
As a retired Officer and a current academy instructor many rookie officers get brainwashed that anything to with a gun makes it a felony stop. Officers sometimes loose sight of the fact citizens have the right to own and carry guns. When some anti gun citizen sees a bulge or a person bends over and it peaks out. As a retiree we are not obliged to comply with the do not carry signs some businesses put up. I encouraged people to utilize their rights. I was also a firm believer in professional courtesy.
Frank a question came up on the police link forum asking if ordered to confiscate weapons would you do it? It will be interesting to see what the future brings with the new administration and Congress!
Interesting question, Eric, especially following the post-Katrina debacle. I wonder if, given the number of gun owners in the US, he would really want to antagonize us by an attempted ban. In the event that happens I, and many of my friends, are quite ready to become criminals, refusing to surrender our right to defend our homes and families, just to pamper to his political dogma. From discussion, and perusal of much of the written communications, it would appear that we will keep our guns, use them to defend our families if required, and take our chances before a panel of 12 of our (hopefully dogma-free) peers, in a court of law. I find it bordering on the criminal that that man, who lives forever surrounded by security and protection personnel, should feel he has the right to deny us, the man in the street, the right to security for our families.
Let me respond to all:
GA Officer: +1
Joel: Your post shows the perfect reason why CCW info shouldn’t be attached to a vehicle. The absolute best way to guarantee efficient transfer of information is face-to-face, your hand to the officer’s hand.
Chris: +1
Eric: +1 on your first comment. As to weapon confiscation…
During our President’s campaign I predicted that two things could start the next civil war in our country:
1) his assassination. I hope and pray the man makes it through his four year term because if he gets killed, no matter who is responsible, I believe it will cause a potential race war in our country - at least near high-density population centers.
2) the government banning private ownership of firearms. 5 million members of the NRA and untold millions of service veterans won’t put up with that. Unfortunately, there are other tactics they can pursue, outrageous taxes on ammunition as the example. As to your question about whether or not I personally would confiscate a weapon from a citizen based on a direct order? The totality of the circumstances would have to decide, but I see very few circumstances where I would consider such an order lawful. I think our government can get away with a lot, and I think the current administration might like to, BUT I also think the man is very intelligent and the political party currently in power doesn’t want to have another repeat of Bill Clinton’s first two years in office. If we’re going to see ugly gun control laws passed I think it will be after President Obama gets re-elected OR at least after the elections in 2010 if the current party stays the majority in Congress.
James: He’s not the only one. Many anti-gunners feel that they should be exempt. I knew a District Court Judge who felt that ONLY judges should be allowed to carry a gun in the courthouse. Rosie O’Donnell is vehemently anti-gun but her bodyguards have permits and carry to protect her. The Clintons are both anti-gun yet they don’t deny the Secret Service access to those evil tools of death.
I’ve long said that you can make ANY pacifist willing to fight. All you have to do is punch him in the face, help him up, remind him of his commitment to peace and then punch him again; repeat as necessary. Eventually he will get up swinging and you’ll have won the argument.
The realistic bottom line in our country is this: as long as soldiers and cops have guns then criminals will have guns because they can be stolen. There is NO LAW that can prevent that and our uniformed professionals will never surrender their weapons. If our country needs a lesson in the value of having honest law-abiding citizens trained and armed, as well as the police trained and well armed, we need only look at Mumbai, India.
I agree with most points in the article. One thing I dispute is the idea that having a holstered pistol and not revealing it will get you shot. My opinion is that to shoot someone for having a holstered pistol is a criminal act in most jurisdictions.
If I was pulled over by a police officer, I would roll down the window and wait for his instructions, and answer any questions he had. If he asked for my driver’s license and motor vehicle registration, and I was armed at the time, I would tell him so before fishing out the paperwork. He can then direct my further actions in a way he feels is appropriate. To present my pistol permit without being asked probably won’t make him feel much safer in the short term.
Gentelmen I am glad to hear so many progun comments! Two bits of legislation that are reported to have been filed are HR1022 and HR645 which are both reported to be anti gun! Thanks for the time!
Ed, it is very unfortunate that you believe officers should not give others a ticket when the law is violated. It is not professional courtesy. It is a broken moral compass. Professional courtesy is allowing a senior to move to the front of the food line. I would derelict in my job if I allowed a coworker to break the law.
Thanks for the advise Frank, I will be making that visit to the local substation and trooper barracks asap. As for your comments on what could possibly set off a ‘civil war’ in this country I think you are right on the mark. I pray our President makes it through his entire term with no harm or things could get REALLY ugly.
Robert
As a law student I think the highway lawyers deserve a bit of legitimate advice. I have a CCW license and always inform a police officer that I’m armed and present my carry license and identification. That much is generally required by law and never a mistake. I think it may be poor advice to tell the public that the goal should always be cooperation, because most people see that word and think it means unconditional complacency. While some municipalities allow a great deal of discretion, a good number use incentives encourage more aggressive enforcement. Your article is written from a position on the same side of the fence as they guy outside your window during the workweek. The remainder of us must face the fact that his goal is potentially, but not always, to turn us into as many tally marks as possible on the marker board at the station.
The LEO isn’t the enemy, but we shouldn’t make pretense that he has our interests in mind. My advice to those who want to maximize the preservation of their rights in court is simple: Say and do very little. After identifying yourself and responding to any questions about where your weapon is located, do exactly what is asked of you, and stop talking. It may seem disrespectful to ignore an officer, but rest assured it’s better for everyone than using fancy creative names for him or questioning motives. Keep in mind that you must physically do what is asked of you, but that you are under no obligation to agree to anything (except a breath test at the station in some states). If he’s asking for permission, the answer is no. If in doubt, just say “I’d like to consult an attorney before I make any comments or decisions about that”. It keeps the officer in the loop, you out of an unnecessary sentencing, and people like me in a job.
If your opinion of the line between preservation of rights and jackassery differs from mine, please feel fee to share it. This advice comes from a Criminal Law professor. Since I’ve learned it, I have yet to get an officer’s perspective.
I am a real estate broker/permit holder in a major city. One night I dropped off an offer at a competitor’s rural office and beat it home in a 55 zone. A state Trooper pulled me over. I reacted as taught long ago my my cop brother.
#1 Pull over quickly but if a opportunity exists choose a safe place for the officer.
#2 Get the license (and permit) out of my billfold.
#3 Turn on the dome light.
#4 Put the window down.
#5 Shut off the car.
#6 Put both hands on the top of the steering wheel and hold the license in the right hand.
#7 Wait to be asked and hand over the license/permit with a measured “Yes Sir”, using the right hand.
#8 Be ready with insurance and registration if called for.
The trooper took my license and told me to wait. When he returned to my window he said something I will never forget. “You were doing 72 in a 55 but I would never give you a ticket. You showed more respect to an officer than anyone I have ever pulled over”.
In other words, Frank Borelli is right. Anything you can do to establish safety for the officer works in your favor. Handing over the carry permit helps because he knows he is dealing with a non-felon citizen.
amsome forum !
The comment by the fellow above who said that he appreciated being shown the concealed permit by someone he was questioning as a’know your enemy’ pretty much says it all.Civilians are the enemy to guys in uniform in far too many places.If officers are prone to shooting those they are alleged to ‘protect and serve’,maybe they’re in the wrong job.Civilian lives are every bit as valuable as those of police officers.Try to remember whose is being served,and who is supposed to be protecting,and maybe civilians wouldn’t view police with such suspicion.
senator levin from the failed but once great state of michigan is once again extolling the his virtues of disarming american. he talk of bad assault weapons and how many police officers have been killed by them. he said 138. more police officers have dies of natural causes over the last 4 years then by assault weapons. the police have no constitutional right to protect individual american citizens - no where is that enumerated in the constitution. now on the other hand far more criminals that had bad intent for innocent americans have died in the line of the goods fire then police ever have. all one has to do is read all of the good story that the NRA provides about how the armed citizen taught the would be criminal a lesson. but now if carl starts disarming americans gradually then many many more innocent good americans will die at the hand of crimininals then the other way around. carl wants this for us. does he really care about the value of human life. further it is tyranny when the government disarms the populace. a disarmed populace has no say so in the edicts that the tyrannical govt hands down. just look at barac economic stimulus welfare plan. basically it has lost support from most taxpayer americans but is fully supported by the welfare non-working class who find satisfaction in stealing from people in the form of taxes. this is common criminality thought whether its a welfare govt dependent criminal who is abled bodied or a criminal who robs people and breaks into houses, etc. carl you have failed in your state and i hope and pray that you fail in your attempt to ban your so called hyperbola assault weapons. really carl you are an assault weapon on the US CONSTITUTION.
Excellent article Frank.
Here in KS, a driver (or passenger) is not required to tell an officer that they are carrying concealed UNLESS asked by the officer. However, a check of the DL will show that a person has concealed carry license. The advice I have given people who asked me what to do if stopped why carrying concealed are as follows:
1. KEEP YOUR HANDS ON THE STEERING WHEEL AND IN VIEW!
2. Turn on the dome light of your vehicle.
2. Tell the officer that you have a carry license, have a weapon and where the weapon is located.
3. Follow the officer’s instructions about reaching for your license, registration or other paperwork.
4. Don’t do anything until the officer tells you to.
5. If you don’t understand what the officer tells you to do, ask him/her for clarification before doing it.
6. Keep calm.
Having dealt with this issue in KS and IN, I can only think of one time that I had an issue with concealed carry when a subject (who was not using his head) decided to pull his weapon out to give to my partner (who asked if there where any weapons in the car). Needless to say, he did not realize I was standing next the car and had the subject at gunpoint in quite a hurry. But it worked out and a valuable lesson was learned by the subject, and more importantly, no one was hurt.
I am all for responsible concealed carry by the people I protect because I know that I can’t be everywhere at once and everyone should be able to protect their and their family’s lives. On top of that, there may be a day that I run into a situation that those same citizens may come to my aid and save me; because I know my limitations and I’ll take the help from anyone willing to give it.
All! First, thanks for the comments.
second…
ArchStanton: you are correct. My point is that you shouldn’t actively hide the fact that you’re legally armed. Then it just looks suspicious.
Paul: If you have nothing to hide then why would you take such a confrontational outlook? If you appear to be uncooperative, how is the officer supposed to perceive / interpret that? In my experience, an uncooperative attitude merely makes the officer suspicious and he becomes more aggressive in his investigative approach.
E. Zach - Thank you.
Chester: Good points.
US Constitution: +1
Ryan: +1
I don’t like to consider it a confrontation, but it shouldn’t be cooperation. The officer wants to give me a ticket that sticks. I want to not have that ticket and be on my way. If he pulls me over and I continue to have a conversation about the fact that I was fully aware that I was going 10 over, he hands me a ticket and writes all my comments in his report. My opportunity to hire a lawyer or challenge the ticket takes a quick nose-dive. I don’t think every law enforcement officer is out to rack up stats, but enough of them are that it’s smart to make sure you aren’t facilitating the process. Don’t be his enemy, but don’t help him out. Furthermore, I’ve seen enough little old ladies on the side of the road with an officer rifling through her quilting bags to know that searches often are done just because someone said yes, not because they’re necessary. I usually don’t have 30 minutes to watch an officer practice searches. I prefer to draw the line where my rights begin.
Imagine it as it would play out on your watch:
You pull over a car. The driver turns on the dome light, lowers the window and has his papers in line. You ask where he’s going, and the driver says “Officer, while I respect your position, I would personally prefer not to discuss anything further.” You ask if he knows how fast he was going and he says, “I’d rather not discuss that either.” In my experience, and that of my friends who I’ve passed the advice to, that’s usually the end of it. Sure, you might glance around the vehicle to see if there’s anything fishy in plain view, take a deep nasal breath to see if you pick up the hue of drugs, run the plates and license (all of which are things you probably normally do anyway). You decide whether or not to deliver the ticket, and proceed accordingly.
My advice isn’t to resist or confront, just to keep the burden of turning you into a conviction exclusively on the state. Do you find that suspicious? Would you react differently than I described?
The few leave a bad taste for the many. In OH, if you are a permit holder it is manadatory that you inform law inforcement at any terry stop. But what bothers me is the officers that are non informed on the legallities of open carry without a permit walking. Of course in OH, you can not open carry in a vehicle unless you have a CCW permit, but if you are walking open, non is required. Police are not educated on this topic, and if they perform a terry stop, when you try to educate them, tactfully, many you try to arrest you on a trumpt up change. Later though you are equited and rich because you sue and have the officer arrested for violation under colors but lets look at the root cause. Gun Control and the lack of education!
These are interesting points, but how many citizens can AUTHENTICATE a law enforcement officer is both legitimate and well-intentioned? (I mean this in the most respectful way; I’m not trying to suggest that officers who are willing to carefully and thoughtfully weigh in on this forum on their own time fit into this category.) What I mean to ask is, what if the officer requests that the civilian hand over the CW? What if it’s not an officer at all, but an impersonator? Or what if it is an officer with a vendetta against CWs? From my perspective as a civilian, it seems that the 2nd Amendment is much better served in a “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” (Clinton’s words used for irony) approach. Disclosure of a CW may reduce the utility of the CW. While I can appreciate the other suggestions here (turning on dome lights, turning engine off, hands on wheel, handing ID with right hand), it seems to me that acknowledging the presence of a legitimate CW negates its value and only improves overall safety when all parties are well-intentioned.
Frank: you are batting 1000. +1
As a citizen (not a police officer) I find it very encouraging for our country that at least some (hopefully most) officers see the tremendous value in the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution. I wish you well, Sir.
It wasn’t until Nov 4 that I now greatly fear the government. As cops, YOU are THE government. I pray for you guys. I don’t want, and completely hate, anyone… anyone physically harming you in any way. I am a Christian who believes in the rule of law and that all [American] cops want to serve and protect us.
I am, however, very concerned about the reports I see in online newspapers across the country from Sheriffs [aka Big Dogs] that overtly and publically hate the 2nd Amendment. Never in my life have I ever feared the government until now. I always held the belief that the US was the greatest country that has ever existed in the history of mankind. It is true today… but four years from now, I don’t know.
As several has pointed out, that I, although with absolutely no requirement, would be willing and able to protect your very life if I witnessed your life in danger. I do not support vigilantism. Here is one example: You pull over someone for some moving violation, and it happens to be in front of my home. These are really bad guys. Two people get out of the car with guns displayed. You have no backup. You are only one person – one cop. There is a good chance that you will NOT return home tonight to your wife. What to do?
I, as a law abiding citizen witnesses this. Although I would NEVER interfere with police business, I see that you are out-gunned and may be killed. Here is where I come in…
I immediately grab my AR-15 and slam in a magazine. I dial 911 and apprise the dispatcher of the situation. Then open my window. Focus on the bad guys. Pop off one round into each of them… for the SOLE purpose of saving your butt. Now what are you going to do? More importantly, what is THE government going to do?
As a Christian, I may have saved your life. As the government, you have the power to DESTROY my life. What are you going to do? If your boss is anti-American (define: any person that does not believe and fully support the entire Bill of Rights) are you willing to risk a promotion? Are you willing to risk your career?
At least in N.W. Indiana most of the time informing the LEO of a CWP will result in being asked to step out, the officer removing the weapon & running a record check (all of which are NO Problem) but, when it’s returned it will most of the time be feild stripped and maybe in a plastic bag. That is where I agree with the “Don’t ask Don’t” tell portion. I understand officer safety but if I carry leaglly and inform you of the weapon and I get it back dissembled what a pain in the a*s for doing the right thing. It’s not worth going through the hassle for a ticket that I more that likley deserve. I would how ever inform if asked or asked to step out some other reason. Like you said better to inform that get shot over a misunderstanding.
I was stopped by a tropper a short time ago. I gave him my driver’s license, insurance and CWP. I was thanked for that and he seemed to be at ease for doing it. Anyone with a CWP is law abiding and is a help to the POLICE. CWP holders want to help prevent crime by helping the police because the police can not be at your side at the time a crime is being committed.
Sir-
I never thought this would be such a hotly discussed topic. Excellent job bringing the issue to the fore.
When I teach officer safety I dissuade the officers from reaching for any credentials prior to the appearance of the officer at your window. Pull right over, interior lights on, both hands locked on the top of the steering wheel. When the officer gets to the window I immediately state “Sir I am a law enforcement officer and I am armed- what do you want me to do next?”
Let him dictate what he thinks is best for his safety.
All that moving around to collect paperwork could heighten the officers suspicion and lead to the misunderstandings we are all striving to avoid.
Thank you for a great article…
When I took my ccw course here in Missouri last year, the instructer said to put your hands on the wheel with your Id’s and inform the officer that you had a ccw and you had your weapon on you. In Mo, we have a special license for ccw but it shows up on our drivers license, so if he runs your license it will show up.
In Missouri, the CCW is attached to the driver’s license. As soon as he runs your license, the officer knows you have a CCW. While I have no problem with telling the officer I have a CCW, I certainly DO have a problem surrendering my loaded gun to him. In fact, I am NOT required to tell the officer if I am carrying at all. Only to surrender my CCW for him to look at. If an officer takes my gun, and that is exactly what he will have to do and THEN disassembles it, we have a problem and I will be going directly to my lawyer to discuss vandalism of the gun. Semiautomatic handguns come in many different versions and wearing a badge does not qualify the officer to take the gun nor to take it apart. That is the only problem I have with letting them know I have it. That being said, the last time I was stopped was the the MSHP at a roadblock. The officer saw my gun and did not get excited about it. Just asked me for my CCW. I gave it to him and then we talked guns for the next half hour with his partner there too. No other traffic was behind me.
Thanks for your reasoned article on the benefits of disclosure, which is often the only responsible action. However, this topic begs some additional consideration for interactions with CCL Holders.
IMPORTANT FOR OFFICERS
(why I often won’t volunteer CCH Permit, for very good reason, if not legally required/not the direct subject of official police action)
My background: Current CCL Holder, former law enforcement (7 yrs), B.A. majors of Law Enforcment/CJ/Pre-Law, from a family of career LEOs and even including a CCH instructor. In other words, I’m familiar with all perspectives.
1st. My experience with other officers: The failure of many former co-workers (LEOs) to grasp appropriate methods & tactics when dealing with CCL citizens, has been confirmed in my civilian experience. I have twice encountered officers while armed (via CCL).
Instance 1: Minor speeding warning. I presented CCL. Deputy had me step out of vehicle. Deputy fumbled to remove a loaded firearm with which he was not familiar from my holster (also not familiar). Given I was not in any “to be arrested” stance, removal from holster from a third person resulted in the short weapon pointed in multiple unsafe directions (me, his legs, my family) before being placed under my vehicle seat by deputy.
Instance 2. I was a non-injured victim in multi-car accident. When officers got around to collecting my info, I felt it might fall under requirement to present license, so I did. An officer then quickly removed weapon (again, in unsafe manner) saying something to the effect of how they were uncomfortable having armed people around. When told I could leave, officer said I’d find my weapon in my car. I found only my holster. THE OFFICERS PUT MY GUN IN ANOTHER PERSON’S CAR!!
So far, the average officer is the last person who should be handling my carry gun, for everyone’s safety.
While these experiences may be antecdotal, they support my broader knowledge on the subject (including that the average police officer IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT a firearms expert, and some don’t understand that they are not).
But most importantly, WHAT CAN BE IMPROVED BY DISARMING THE CCL HOLDER WHO HAS PRESENTED A LICENSE?!!!
You know:
1. The citizen is compliant.
2. The citizen has passed a semi-thorough background check.
3. The citizen is from an extemely law-abiding demographic (CCL Holders).
4. The citizen has a stake in remaining law-abiding.
5. The firearm is secured on their person, out of sight (in other words, safe and secure).
6. The citizen already had the opportunity to shoot you and didn’t!! (note to officers who think they’re protected while approaching a car: actually never mind, you’re a lost cause).
Now assuming the incident/infraction/call-for-service isn’t something likely to result in an arrest of the CCL Holder to begin with,
Do you really want to:
1. Introduce an exposed weapon into the situation
2. By removing it from an otherwise secure holster, the design/operation of which you may not be familiar,
3. And then handling this loaded firearm, with which you also may not be familiar
4. And take on additional distraction and responsibility for the safe temporary storage and return of the firearm
5. While costing additional time out-of-service?
6. Oh and by the way, if your concern is in regard to that rare hot-head CCL Holder you imagine… do you think disarming someone of their otherwise legal firearm for no possible benefit might be an unecessary provocation? Just talking officer survival class here, not justifying a hypothetical obnoxious/resistant CCL Holder.
And now time for the cold hard statistics that end this fun academic debate:
How many officers have been killed during routine stops, etc., involving CCL Holders who were legally carrying at the time?
Now, if you can find one or two that have, how many of those CCL Holders presented their license, were allowed to keep their weapon, and then shot the officer?
If the answer to the two criteria is not 0, then the statistics have recently changed.
Are we all living back in the real world now?
Don’t disarm compliant CCL Holders. It is a clear, established matter, for which I’ve never heard a winning counter argument made. THE END. Thanks for humoring me!
P.S.: Regarding my broad statement about some officers’ lack of firearms “expertise,” even I as a “gun nut” would have hesitation in these scenarios.
Maybe they’re carry gun is an odd make/model/serial #, maybe it’s been modified aftermarket in a way that affects handling/safety. You don’t know. Period!
And when an officer is an “expert,” it’s usually due to hobby interest/enthusiasm, not police training (very rare exceptions).
If you are an officer reading this, and most of your firearms knowledge is derived from law enforcement work/training… like perhaps your mother warned: You should not be touching other peoples guns! Seriously though, be aware of what you may not be aware of, and don’t introduce unecessary handling of fireams into a police situation unless truly warranted.
As a CCL holder, I fully agree that it only makes sense to be willing to give an officer the information he needs in order for him/her to know you’re on their side. I’ve got no problem with that whatsoever.
Just a little truth for everyone to chew on.
The government in it’s official capacity(Law enforcement etc….) does not have a right to keep and bear arms.
The 2nd amendment is specific. Only the “People” have this right affirmed in our bill of rights.
The U.S. Government is only granted this “priviledge” by it’s “People” for the purpose of effective protection of themselves.
This is why it makes no logical sense for a judge etc…to state that judges(or any tax paid official) be the only ones allowed to bear arms.
Have fun
One more
There were 14 million big game hunting licenses sold in the U.S. last year alone.
That number is larger than the 5 largest standing armies in the world combined.
In North Carolina permit # is same as DL#. If pulled over the officer already knows if you have a carry permit.It shows up on his screen.
my advice, turn on all inside lights, place hands on wheel, if passenger, on dash. Declare you are permitted and carrying.
My grandson serves a large city police force.
I’ve been pulled over, never been treated discourtesly.I understand his concerns.fortunately, I live in a Shall Issue state.
In Vermont EVERYBODY can carry concealed, no permit required, so we treat all stops as if everyone in the vehicle is carrying. It certainly keeps you on your toes.
As an officer who has been stopped by another a couple of times, I always start by turning on the interior lights and rolling down all windows before he even approaches. This shows you’ve nothing to hide and when you hand over you license, reg & insurance along with your department business card, he’ll immediately connect with the lights on-windows down courtesy. Then I show the badge and department ID as he’s now expecting it. We all know how much tinted windows and no interior lights on add to the apprehension of the unknown risk stop. It’s best to start out showing everything, daytime or night.
as a concealed carry instructor in north carolina we teach when giving license and registration to inform the officer that one is a permit holder and I do have a firearm. at that point totally comply with the officers wishes !!
A few points please.
1. If you get stopped, offer your ccw license or if you don’t need one, let the officer know you are armed. Bending over to get a paper and having the LEO see a gun poking out of something is the fastest way I know to get shot. I have always been thanked for letting the officer know. Courtesy goes a LONG way on both sides.
2. The guy with the ar-15 shooting the bad guys from his window. Are you NUTS???? You add an element of danger to an already deadly situation, the officers have no idea you are shooting at the bad guys, all they see is you, a gun, and a loud bang. You could be the suspects friend for all they know, and you also will be very dead. I have been tenpted to use my weapon in the presence of an officer only once, and he was in danger and didn’t see it. I yelled, he looked and saw, and the situation was dealt with. Had I drawn, he would have seem ME as the threat and acted accordingly.
3. A police officer had been speeding in my town. The other officers said, “True Blue” and let him get away with it. A few weeks later, at about 3am, he ran over a transient while going in excess of 70 in a 35 zone. If I see you driving in excess of the speed limit, I WILL file an official complaint with the local office and with II if that department has one. I know of one local office that does not allow complaints on it’s officers, and they are known as very dangerous officers - to themsevles and everyone around them. Obey the laws, you represent them, you should obey them whenever possible.
4. If an officer is pulling you over, and you do not trust that he is legit, then slow down, put on your hazards, and go to a public place… slowly. Call 911 on your phone if you have one, and let them know what is going on. The worst that will happen is that two officers show up, and he knows you are uncomfortable. If an officer is acting inappropriately towards you, then stay calm, follow instructions, and request that he have his supervisor join him. Most stations have a policy that on request, a second offcer will be dispatched and monitor the stop.
You have rights. You do not have to submit to a search of the car. You do not have to submit to a serch of your personal effects. Staying silent about whatever you are accused of is proper, but don’t be an ass about it. If you leave your car, take the keys and lock the door. Trust me on this one. The officer is not your friend, nor is he your enemy. He is doing a job that is dangerous, and hard - but he is still a person and shjoudl be treated with respect. A smile an a little friendly chat doesn’t hurt either.
I am a SC CWP holder and cannot believe the ridiculous variance a state over in GA has with its carry laws. Both of my brother in-laws hold carry permits in GA which upon registering for them only require fingerprints and an application at your local sheriffs station. In SC we are required to take a course to certify that we can properly holster, operate, take-down, clean, reassemble, pass firing range qualification, uderstand the difference between a pistol and a revolver and the main components and lastly pass a written test that contains questions pertaining to the above as well as our state CWP laws. What I cannot understand is why SC does not have reciprocity with GA when we in SC are so much more knowledgeable regarding firearms and CWP laws than those in GA. My brother-in-law says in GA if they get stopped, they are required to place their weapon on the dashboard in plain sight for the officer. I agree with the fellow above, I would feel very uneasy stopping the public and seeing guns on the dashboard before I can reach the vehicle’s driver window. Just my opinion though, now in the states it doesn’t matter here on the web or in the voting booths. I think our country is heading for disaster. Just hope we have enough veterans, current enlisted, hunters, CWP holders and other pro-gun people that will react when things hit the fan. To end, I disagree with the State of Georgia’s CWP application process. I feel people should be required to undergo an instruction CWP course before issued a permit in GA.
when i get stopped i give them the papers i need to give them then i tell them i have a ccw and let them take it from there. they all handle the situation different and never a problem
First of all, police officers are my best friends. I want to do everything I can to make his day safe and job worthwhile. I never thought of showing my permit, but a good idea. As he/she has dedicated to keeping me safe, it should only be my responsibility to do all that I can to make their job easier.
Brad,
I am a CCW Permit holder in Georgia. You are correct in saying that, in order to get a weapons permit, you have to submit an application and your fingerprints (as well as a background check). However, there is nothing in Georgia law that states that you have to place your weapon on the dash of your vehicle, or even tell them that you have a permit. There are several confusing laws in Georgia, but that is not one of them.
Patrick (GeorgiaCarry.org Member) Georgiacarry.org is a citizens advocacy group working toward the reform of Georgia’s poorly written, overly restrictive, ignored by the courts gun laws.
Frank, I was recently stopped by a local, city within a city, patrol officer for a non working license plate lamp. At 0400 the officer was obviously looking for something else. I immediately stopped, turned on all interior lights, obtained my insurance, CHL, and drivers license. After the officers identification I handed him the three documents. He asked if I were armed and if so where was it located. I provided this information and he invited me to the rear of my vehicle to observe the burned out lamp. Funny thing, both lamps were working. The patrolman apologized and stated that there must be a short in the wiring that was intermittent. He bid me farewell and asked me to be safe. At no time did he become anxious or overbearing. This was the most plesant stop I have ever had. Just goes to show that if you do the right thing the officer is less likely to be on edge. This was my first traffic stop in 17 years.
If I stop someone and he or she shows me a police I.d. I say have a nice day.
Thank you all for the insight on every side of this debate. I’m a CCL holder in the un-friendly state of CT, and have fortunately avoided a traffic stop since I’ve received my permit… (does wonders for my insurance rate). I’ve always turned off the car, rolled down both windows and turned on my dome light, and now I know why I’ve never had an issue with an officer. Unfortunately, I do know that my father has had a slightly less-than-wonderful experience I thought I should share. He was pulled over (several years back) for speeding or the like, informed the LEO if his CCW status and explained where his revolver was. The officer requested to see the weapon, and my father obliged willingly. Once in hand, the officer began to lecture my father about the responsibility and ethics of carrying concealed. The Officer eventually asked “What makes you feel that you are qualified to carry this weapon?”.. My father’s response was “Well officer, with all due respect, I feel that three tours in Viet Nam as an infantry Sergeant has sufficiently prepared me to carry a weapon at home…” That was more-or-less the end of the conversation, and no ticket was issued.
I agree with you a 100% when it comes to providing a fellow officer with your police ID. I also agree that you should not assume that someone is asking for, “professional courtesy”, when it comes to a ticket. I spent a short time as an officer in a metropolitan PD in the Kansas City, KS area. In the state of Kansas the driver’s license bureau actually did the courtesy of placing an active law enforcement tag on your driver’s license so officer’s would know you were a law enforcement officer. This is a very good way to let other officer’s know that you are not giving false ID. We all need to also keep in my mind that we have to show a professional attitude when a fellow officer stops us for a valid reason. I have never had an issue when it comes to this. Stay safe…
I live in Ohio. I have a CHL. What bothers me is that SOME LEO in my state, quite a few of them in fact have not educated themselves on the CHL laws. SOME of them erroneously feel a CHL holder must inform they have a CHL even if they are NOT carrying a firearm. Being wrongfully accused of breaking a law by somebody who for darn sure ought to KNOW the law before lambasting a person he has stopped for traffic enforcement is very stressful. I’m perfectly fine with notifying of my armed status IF I am carrying, but I do not feel it should be required by law with punishment resulting from failure to do so.
Also LEO might want to stop and think a minute about Ohio’s requirement to “promptly” notify….if we are required to do so by law it is very frustrating when you guys do not take a breathe between sentences and we have to forcefully interrupt your typical vehicle stop “speech”.
I would also ask you Ohio LEO to learn the law, and maybe lambaste any fellow officers who have not done so, it is extremely unprofessional for an officer in Ohio to insist that only carry in plain sight in a vehicle is legal (still happens now and then) or to firmly insist under color of law that a driver MUST by law inform you he has a CHL irregardless of whether or not he/she is armed.
Paul:
You’re right. A person is not required by law to do anything more than surrender the required documents. However, in being so cold - which can be considered rude by some - he guarantees that the officer is going to be equally cold and professional. If you have a hope of getting a warning or any type of discretion from the officer, being polite and cooperative is best. If you want to act like you’re already in court then expect the officer to act the same way - which means NOT treating you in any kind way. Just cold professionalism. How does that benefit anyone except the lawyers who make money off of stuff that probably could be handled in most motor vehicle administrations anyway?
Al;
I think you’re right. This, to me, is a trickle down effect of the difference between Sheriffs and Chiefs. Chiefs are appointed. Sheriffs (at least all I know of) are elected. That means that POLICE departments operate more on the will of the governing body while SHERIFFS agencies serve the people in a more focused way. I’ve long believed, as many have heard, that gun control is a matter of education not legislation.
Concerned Citizen:
That is quite the catch-22 you propose. If the officer orders you to surrender your firearm and you refuse you can be charged with failing to obey a lawful order. Assuming that outlook on your part, I would also assume that you’d resist what you perceive as an unlawful arrest. Since the officer already knows you’re armed this has the potential to escalate VERY quickly into a lethal force encounter. As a retired police officer / current police instructor, I have to assume good intentions on the part of the officers. If you can’t then I’d strongly encourage you to use the power of your vote to change the leadership in your area to effect positive change until you can.
I Support You:
In the scenario you’ve given I’m going to ask you to SHOOT FIRST and call 911 second. The typical gunfight lasts about 3 seconds and it’ll take longer than that for you to dial and someone to answer the phone. If you save MY butt in such a fashion, I’ll thank you and take you to dinner and stand to offer testimony in favor of your actions at whatever legal proceedings follow. Don’t mistake our country’s leadership for the soul of America. There are true American patriots out there - everywhere in our country - who will stand up and do the RIGHT thing. (but don’t mistake that for the LEGAL thing as I’ve discussed in previous blogs)
Fred:
Speaking only for myself you’d get it back unloaded, slide locked back and a request not to load it until I’d left the scene. That assumes that I had a good reason to take it in the first place - which I don’t foresee unless you’re acting like a jerk. On the other hand, if having your gun returned to you simply field stripped is THAT big a deal perhaps you should practice your weapon maintenance skills more?
Joseph Stair: +1
Jerseyjustice:
Good outlook. I had an experience once where a federal agent did that to me on a traffic stop. Just so happens he was driving a convertable so I could reach him easily as I stood behind what would be the B-pillar. When I asked him where his weapon was he said, “Shoulder holster,” so I knew it was under his left arm. I asked where his ID was and he said, “Opposite breat pocket,” so I knew it was on the right side. When I asked for his credentials he reached with his RIGHT hand into his LEFT armpit. It was an interesting few moments that ended with both of us breathing out our anxiety when I learned he was left handed. The point: miscommunication can still happen. We all have to be careful. It IS a matter of life or death.
Dennis: +1
Jim Mack;
While I understand your outlook I still can’t see why the average cop, with no justification, would take your weapon. I also don’t understand how field stripping a weapon is vandalism. I would encourage you to exercise your legal options through whatever lawyer you wish to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to to educate that officer on how wrong it was to take your weapon - no matter how it is justified for his own safety. By the same token, it looks like you’ve had some good experience with cops. So why such the harsh outlook?
Charles Doe:
1) Thank you for your service. 2) I have NEVER said that officers should arbitrarily disarm citizens they pull over. I said the citizen should, as a matter of courtesy and common sense (see that title at the top?) surrender their CCW permit or at least advise the officer they have one in compliance with the law or if they are carrying. You’re right though: most cops aren’t firearms “experts”. Hell, I’ve got 7 years military experience, 2.5+ decades of police experience and have been a police firearms instructor since ‘94. I don’t consider myself an expert.
GA: Thanks
Scott: interesting thoughts.
Max: +1
Pete:
Excellent points and, again, focused on courtesy and communication. I like Vermont’s outlook on gun laws… but putting ALL those windows down must get chilly there during the winter months!
Raymond Kowalski:
And there you have it.
Matthew: Good points.
Brad: Amen
Steve: because we’re all different.
Gerald Figueroa: Thank you!
Stan: and all was as it should be. Did you get the wiring checked?
Cal: how about retired ID?
Jeremy: interesting story. I have nothing but the utmost respect for our military service vets (being one myself) and I’d like to thank your Dad for his service.
Rob: Agreed
—
I had no idea that this topic would generate so much feedback. THANK YOU to all who replied (and who still will?). Above all, stay safe. We must all act responsibly as we handle and/or carry ANY firearm.
I slow down at stop signs. I exceed the speed limit. Again, if I get pulled over the officer chooses to write it, while I might be disappointed, I certainly won’t complain and I definitely don’t want to get shot over a misunderstanding.
WOW, I mean….WOW. That is really striking that an LEO would basically admit he/she does not bother to stop at stop signs (slows down) and speeds pretty much anywhere, and any other guy/gal with a badge is free to do so as long as they don;t act like jerks when stopped…..slow down at a stop sign, and only run 79 in a 65……..it sure is a different world on the outside of the badge.
Willbird:
I think you might misunderstand. Unless someone intentionally stays BELOW the speed limit then the large majority of the time they are exceeding it. It’s very difficult to keep a vehicle going EXACTLY the speed limit all the time - therefore, by default, we ALL speed. To STOP at a stop sign means coming to a complete halt where the tires are not rolling and holding it there for a second or so before starting again. How many people do that? It only takes that ONE time at four in the morning with no other traffic at the intersection of two lowly roads with clear visibility for miles in either direction… and you don’t completely stop. You slow down; look; it’s obviously safe; you drive on.
In my perception of drivers, 99.9% of us speed - whether it’s a little or a lot. 99.9% don’t STOP at stop signs.
And I NEVER said I only extended that outlook to fellow law enforcement. EVERY citizen gets that outlook from me.
While you write your comment to make it look like an LEO just brazenly ignores the law, I was attempting to merely express that NONE of us are perfect and I (personally, not speaking for any other cop in the world) felt that it would be hypocritical for me to act as if I’m a perfect driver as I enforced the laws on others.
Why so cynical and accusatory?
Frank I ALWAYS stop at stop signs, I mean ALWAYS…the wheels stop, the weight transfers back to the rear of the car. It is not a hard habit to form, it is easy once you form it. I did take what you said about not writing tickets for 15 over and rolling stops to be a professional courtesy that you reserve to LEO only, if it fair and across the board I was wrong in that respect.
I would suggest you learn to STOP Frank :-), it is not difficult. I can say that where I live 99.99% of people do not roll stops, I watch people every day and the only flagrant violation I see EVERY day even from marked Police Units is failure to use turn signals. For a person who is not LEO rolling stop signs is the DUMBEST traffic ticket magnet activity I can imagine doing 10-15 times a day or more.
I like most people do run 5-7 over the speed limit on the open road :-)…never more than 7 tho, and I check the speedo in any car I own to ensure accuracy. I have never been pulled over for 5-7 over, 10 over in fog yes….plate light out…yes…brief dip left of center at 4am due to playing with radio…yes.
I just cannot believe you roll stops like that….shaking my head over that one………….completely puzzles me
Bill
Well, sir: I admire your commitment to such careful adherement to the law. I freely admit my own weakness and imperfection. I will strive in the future to be as dedicated as you are. And no… I’m not being sarcastic.
Frank I am no saint, the habit probably dates from times when I REALLY did not want to get pulled over and have my car searched. Maybe I’m just OCD :-)…hehehehe
As mentioned before,in Ohio we still have the requirement to notify if we have inaction with LEO’s in an official capacity and we are currently armed.
My problem is this… LEO’s have the right to disarm us quote “For Officer Safety”. If we are suppose to be one of the good guys, and we have not given the officer any reason to think otherwise, why disarm us?
I saw an officers attempt to disarm CCW holders. The officer wasn’t familiar with the person holster and therefore fumbled with the weapon and almost dropped it.
When he finally got it out of the holster, he was unfamiliar with the weapon and in the process of trying to clear it this officer not only swept the CCW holder, but his partner and two civilians standing on the sidewalk. Now if we are all trying to be safe, why subject a law abiding citizen to this type of treatment.
Now remember I said in my first paragraph, the CCW holder has not given the LEO any other reason to make him/her feel threatened.
Also what’s about giving back a weapon disassembled. If an officer did that to my weapon, I would returned it to him and advise him to fix it.
Frank, Regarding your second point of, “… two things could start the next civil war in our country…, the government banning private ownership of firearms.”
I’ll give the government my gun when they take it from my cold, dead hands!
Thank you for your always eloquent and cogent remarks.
With Utmost Respect ~ Semper Fi,
Hank
Owner/Founder
SnipersBrew.com
Lthrnck: I can’t speak for ALL cops. Just me. I’d rather you leave it in your holster with a clear instruction that you not touch it during the course of our interaction.
Hank: as always, sir - thank you. We’re on the same team.
I understand that… but why do LEO’s have to keep saying that… Don’t touch it…. Don’t you guys think we know better. I mean they only beat you over the head with that in class.
This is the type of LEO attitude that makes me keep thinking that alot of LEO’s think they are the only ones
who should be able to protect themselves.. It’s like you don’t trust us.
In a discussion with a local chief of police, I noted that officers are not experts on field stripping all weapons. For instance, I wonder how many know how to disassemble a CZ52 properly and without breaking the firing pin if they just unload it and drop the hammer. THAT is ignorance and vandalism all rolled into one and that is what I am talking about. And what if the officer drops my gun on the street? I am not really a harsh person, just believe my rights are being intruded when an officer arbitrarily takes my gun and then begins taking it apart.The objective of having a CCw is to keep it concealed. Not for an officer to reveal it to everyone who drives by if I am stopped. In the end, the officers in my neck of the woods are reasonable and believe most people should carry. That is not true in the large cities and states like Illinois or Californai for example. I am defensive due to some officers not knowing the law as it exists, particularly the laws governing such a sensitive topic. I have a freat relationship with the local sheriff and the chief of police and their officer. It is when I leave the boundaries I get a bit antsy.
Lthrnck,
You would be amazed how many times we stop cars, ask the drivers if they have any weapons, and watch their hands immediately dart to where it is so they can show it to us. It’s not that they intend to use it, some people just get nervous and attempt to comply a little too quickly. So, yes, I frequently tell compliant drivers not to touch a weapon if they are carrying one. Helpful reminders never hurt anyone.
Safest place a gun can be on a stop is in the holster. I’m from Illinois, a no-can-carry state, so I don’t know from experience, but having thought about this from a trainer’s point of view, seems to me if the officer has to make the gun safe for him because of whatever extraordinary circumstance of the traffic stop, maybe he should put the secured holster in the violator’s trunk before high-tailing away. I can see where getting a warrant hit and going up to the car to arrest the driver would become a bit uncomfortable knowing I’m going to ask first to surrender the gun. That’s the problem with weapons. If they’re present, people tend to think about them as solutions to their problems. I know 97% of people are good folks, and I handle my contacts precisely to avoid conflict, but on a violator’s darkest day, when they’re not thinking right and like Dr. George Thompson says, under the influence of anger, rage or frustration, situations become a bit more difficult. You can tell me whatever you want today, Mr. Citizen, about what cop didn’t smile and say, “yes sir!”, but under the influence, when your brain blames me for whatever you’ve done, you’re not the same person. All of us have seen it. It’s not as easy as folks seem to think, to get someone to willingly comply who’s dead set against it. Having said that, you hired me, and you’ve all got my word I’ll do whatever I can to treat you with respect and dignity and protect your rights whether I’m arresting or helping you, as best I can until they kick me out’a here.
Lthrnck:
Think about how many people police officer interact with who are BAD guys. We can’t identify them with our super-secret technology-enhanced magic vision… we have to work on the assumption that everyone intends to harm us and work from there. Does that suck? Yes. Is there another way? Not that anyone has discovered in the whole of human history.
Jim Mack:
Common sense is as common in police work as everywhere else. And personal prejudices can make people do things that other people deem odd (at best).
John:
Well said. But I need to emphasize that, by and large, the HUGE majority of legally armed citizens are the responsible type. Finding them drunk, high or otherwise impaired AND carrying is, in my experience, a rare thing. And unless they’re flaming idiots, when that DOES happen - obviously while maintaining appropriate officer safety protocols - they usually can be told, “Hey, do you know how stupid you’re being? Think about it,” and they come around to willing, thankful, obedience to lawful orders.
Michigan Deputy,
I can understand that, I guess if you haven’t had interaction with a LEO, while carrying, you would probably be a bit nervous.
I’m an old Marine so dealing with LEO’s or the public has never been a problem for me.
But again I just learned something new. So old dogs can learn new tricks.
Frank,
I understand the “Suck” part, it is ashame that you have to approach and “Inter Action” that way. I guess what I didn’t state well was after that initial Inter Action, and you have already ID’d the person as a good guy, then LEO’s continue to treat Citizens like bad guys.
I know that is not anywhere near the majority of you but that 5% sure doesn’t make the 95%’s job any easier. WE have seen this problem raise it’s ugly head several times in Ohio. In fact we had a demostration in Northwood, Ohio a few months back for just such a problem.
We even had one LEO from the OHP, inform us that his commander told them, if you get a call the the person has a CHL, put them over the hood and disarm them right away.
So again I guess when you get that kind of treatment from “A Few” it makes your leary or “The Rest”. Hmm kinda just the reverse of your problem.
Well I guess all we can hope for is more forumns like this were Good LEO’s and Law Abiding Citizens can get together and talk about them and try to do our best to understand each other.. even if we do always agree.
Keep up the good work all you LEO’s and try to get some of that “Goodness” to rub off on those LEO’s you know that have strayed from the Good Path..
Carry On… Semper Fi
I was challenged by an LEO to pose the following two-part question here:
“Would you, upon learning your traffic stop subject was an LEO, disarm him/her, unload their weapon, and tell them not to reload until you had cleared the area? Would you consider this perfectly acceptable were it to happen to you?”
In the end, I wish there were no need to carry a gun. The police cannot be there to protect those who are unable to defend themselves. There are way too many criminals sent back out on the street by liberal judges and parole officers with the overcrowding of prisons. That has to be the ultimate frustration for the police. Those of us carrying lawfully should be treated as good guys. We, at least I would defend an officer through the use of deadly force should the situation arise. I cooperate with LE and expect to be treated accordingly. That is all I ask.
NavyChief: No I wouldn’t. I HAVE had it done to me.
Barring unusual circumstances, I would inform any officer who stopped me that I am carrying so as to avoid “unfortunate surprises”, however I understand why some people would not volunteer the information. For example, I know a local trucker who was stopped for a roadside vehicle inspection in St Louis City and after the officer saw his ccw, told him he was not carrying. The officer then told him he would take him downtown, have his truck towed, and find something else to charge him with. A few jurisdictions in this area have a reputation for being quite unfriendly to citizens who legally carry, with the only recourse being an expensive legal defense. If you don’t have that kind of money to spare, I can understand why they would chose to be discrete.
Good thinking but, maybe a little explanation would work better. After almost a quarter of a century as an LEO this is what I have found works best for me.
Window down - hands on the top of the steering wheel. Officer asks for license etc. My hands don’t move. “Yes Sir, I want you to know that I am going to do exactly what you tell me to do, BUT before I do that - I have a loaded gun on my right hip, my badge and ID are in my left rear pocket. What do you want me to do sir?”
Nobody has ever mistaken that approach for a request for “professional courtesy”. So far (twice) it has been appreciated by the officer involved.
Velobard: it’s a shame the man was treated that way. Political agendas shouldn’t exist in impartial law enforcement.
PD Sgt. - good approach. The key I see is that you still communicate to the officer the presence of the weapon, its location and your cooperative attitude. THAT is what I was trying to emphasize as important.
I agree with several comments made here. It has become an issue within our department as well. We are a smaller department of roughly 25 officers, which includes administration. I don’t believe that many of our younger officers would even know how to respond to the situation of an individual identifying that they have a CWP. I know the consensus among many of my fellow officers was that if a cop showed his badge they are trying to get out of a ticket. I highly disagree with this and would want the officer that stopped me, or myself if I am the one making the stop, to identify the concern and be informed for the safety of us all. I read a good article in American Cop from Sept/Oct 2008 dealing with this exact subject, professional courtesy. Great topic selection.
I am not a copnor do I ever want to pretend to be. Thanks for the info I do have a CCW and hope I never need to use it.
I stumbled across this page while looking for something else, and stuck around long enough to read the article and all of the comments. I’ve just applied for a CCW here in GA and have gathered some great advice from everyone’s comments and suggestions. Even knowing that this site is LEO oriented, I am very impressed with the mutual respect and good intentions (and advice) as expressed in the many comments. It’s rare that I see such character on the Internet. Keep up the good work.
thanks for all the info,out there.i’am a new ccl 10days old now.in mo. it seems that the best thing to do is to tell the leo. that you are a ccl holder,but the problem with me is the trans action of handleing a loaded fire arm over to a leo. on a stop. here in mo. some leo, don;t live up tp the code of proffesional leo.our daily papers is full of arcitle about this action.i would suggest that you carry a digital recording device,and record the stop,or call 911 to have them listen in and record the stop.here in missouri things are just that bad for ccl holder. better safe than sorry. thanks for all of your info. it has been a great help.ccl are the sheep dogs of america. thanks again knowledge is the key.
Great comments all. I have a CCW from Pa. and we do not have to advise a LEO when stoppeed but the first post is the best … BETTER THAN GETTING SHOT OVER A SURPRISE…
Well one morning I got stopped on the way back from a morning hunting trip .. with 3 of my kids… and we had many hunting guns … and I also carried concealed… I advised the Pa. State Trooper that there were several shotguns present and that I was carrying… SHE only asked me for the concealed weapon … she unloaded it and put it in her car … she was good enough to only issue a warning (rolled a stop sigh) and then handed me back the gun and ammo. THANKED ME FOR LETTING HER KNOW ABOUT THE CONCEALED WEAPON … Then commented on the gun as she also had a RUGER .357 Revolver which she liked very much… and stated approval of my choice to teach my kids to hunt and handle firearms safely….
Now I was a LEO many yrs ago … it never came up in our interaction… but the professionalism displayed and the ease with which she handled the “gun issue” was most refreshing and even pleasant.
Just more proof that we are not alone and that the average cop does appreciat us.