The Oldest Debate
Frank Borelli
Editor-in-Chief
Officer.com
The age old debate in the firearms community of .45 versus 9mm, or “big and slow” versus “small and fast” has once again reared its ugly head - but in a slightly different context than normal. I was recently at the range where several of the shooters were qualifying with Glock Model 21 .45ACP pistols. Others were qualifying with Glock Model 23 .40S&W pistols. One guy was qualifying with a Glock Model 17 9mm pistol.
Those qualifying with the .45ACP weapons had no issues. They all actually shot scores that were in the high 90s. The guy who qualified with the 9mm had no issues, also shooting a score in the high 90s. Three officers were shooting the .40s and one of them was shooting as well as he wanted to - or felt he was capable of. Upon reflection I had to wonder if the recoil of the .40 played any roll in his scores. You see, he had previously qualified with 9mm pistols - and done so pretty well from what I understand.
That thought brought forth this question: is it better to have a weapon of larger caliber if that larger caliber contributes to a measurable drop in your score? We make the assumption that a drop in your qualification score has a concurrent and proportionate to your shooting performance in an actual life threatening situation.
Some readers will answer that question, “No.” They believe that the caliber has no effect.
Other readers will answer, “Maybe.” They’ll want more specific information and perhaps to diagnose the shooter for themselves. I understand that completely.
For the sake of this conversation, let us assume that the caliber does affect the shooter’s score in a negative way - no matter how little it may be. That brings me to this question:
Is it better to carry a 9mm pistol that you qualified 95% with or a .40S&W pistol that you qualified 85% with?
I submit to you that an officer should - if given the option - carry the largest fighting caliber weapon he (or she) can that (s)he can qualify with to the highest standard. What do I mean? In my perfect world, the officer would carry a 9mm that he shot a 95% with instead of a .40S&W that he can’t shoot better than 85% with.
What do you think?
I tend to agree. I recently had to coach an officer who struggled with the .40 issue SIG 226. When given the 9mm version, her shooting and confidence improved. I attribute this to both calibre and the slightly smaller dimensions of the 9mm. I know thatI’d rather hit 95% of the time with a good round than 85% of the time with something that is slightly better.
An officer should carry what they are confortable with, and capable of handling. A hit with a 9mm, is better than a miss with a .45acp.
I agree. I have read many articles pointing out that if you can’t hit the target what good would the added stopping power do for you? I would rather hit the target several times with smaller caliber than miss and possibly not go home.
Caliber will not matter if you miss your target. Personally, I like the Glock 21.
Carry what you are comfortable with. If you do not hit the target, not only are you putting yourself in danger but what of the other people around you. If you feel you just have to carry a larger caliber be sure and do a lot more practice with it until you become more comfortable with it and can shoot just as well with it.
I have worked with quite a few new female shooters and I would have to with yes it does affect the shooters score. I have seen shooters shoot a 100 with a .22 cal and go to a .45 and the first round be in the 10X and the rest flyers. The shooter was uncomfortable with the recoil and anticipated the recoil loosing all discipline then goes to a 9MM compensated race gun with very mild recoil then shoot a flyer first round seeing that her hand was not getting kicked by a mule start hitting the 10 ring. I have tried this on 7-8 shooters and get the same result this being far from being a scientific experiment just an observation of novice females and shooting. You should carry what you are comfortable shooting there is ammo out there that will make up for the smaller hole. Technology is wonderful and you should use it I carry black talon in a .45 and it expands roughly to the size of an 12 ga. Slug and a 9mm 2 shot derringer with the black talons and it expands roughly to a half inch so it is about the same as an .45
Robert Roach
Quoting and Design Engineer
Considering today’s lawsuit happy climate, every miss has to be considered a “million dollar bullet,” as that will be the minimum lawsuit filed if anyone but the perp is struck (or even a suit from the perp himself!). One must consider every miss to be the likelihood of the end of one’s career, family, and everything else. Now what do you want to carry? Matter of fact, if you’re not scoring 100% every time at the range, maybe you should be spending lots, lots more time there. Would you be confidant taking a head shot at 25 yards at a perp holding a hostage in front of him? Would you be comfortable with your PARTNER taking that shot, if you are the hostage? Think about it. Then get your butt down to the range. Take your partner.
I recently purchased a Sig 229 (.357) with the thought of carrying. The recoil was like a cannon. I much prefer a good .45.
Forget about uniformity. An officer should carry the firearm they can perform with (and feel comfortable with)the best. Smaller hands cannot handle a larger handgun as well as those with large hands. I think it’s a matter of officer safety if a department fails to provide a firearm the officer can shoot well.
okay, Okay! Lets remember a few things. Ammo, balistics and control! Whice caliber stops the best? In other other words, can you control the gun? Is the ammo capable? And will it shoot through 5 layers of winter clothing and still STOP the perp? All this should be taken into consideration!
I love the 9mm for many reasons. With todays ammo technology a 9mm can perform wonders. Ammo is cheap therefore,you can afford to shoot more and shoot more often. Smaller hands can get a good grip on the gun (with almost all makes and models). Almost all compact and sub-compact 9mm models are very easily concealed with little or no bulk. And if your one for firepower fancy,a 9mm will hold more rounds on average than most other guns will,even more so if you add +1 or +2 mag extensions. More important than anything else though,carry what you can shoot the best and are most confident with,regardless of caliber so long as you can put the shot where it has to go when it needs to go there.
I’ve been involved with our departments firearms qualifications for years, and several things were noticed when we switched to Glock, our choice was the 22 in 40 S&W this is a great gun initially but we soon noticed that officers struggled with them, one thing that was noticed was that when the recoil spring was changed to a heavier spring, qualification scores increased, there was not that bad jerk of the weapon. Personally I would carry a commander over anything but in todays politically correct mentality the public has the ability to make life difficult Chief G pointed out that ballistics and control are important, the 40 covers both, slightly slower that a 9m but will still impact with the energy of a 45acp, is there a good answer, no Officer safety needs to be foremost, carry what you can qualify with, that way should you need to use it, you’ll end your shift in one piece…
I can’t speak from experience, but what we’re learning in the academy from ballistic experts is that aim goes to hell in critical incidents, so a more or less trivial difference in range accuracy isn’t going to be a factor as long as an officer is trained in the basic functions and can qualify.
From a ballistics standpoint, you want to be able to fire a round that will penetrate far enough into a body to be effective and that will also perform adequately versus things like auto glass. If you can do that with a 9mm round, then fine. The whole point of larger caliber is to achieve a larger permanent wound cavity without sacrificing penetration due to expansion, and it seems that it’s just a balance that you have to find somewhere between 9mm and .45.
I can speak from experience. I used to believe that i needed a higher caliber than 9mm. I was in a shooting with a glock 17. my rounds penetrated a windshield and the suspect.
Excessive use…your aim doesn’t go to hell, instead, you revert to your training and utilize what is known as point shoudler shooting. The muscle memory you’ve aquired during training / range takes over. I was 10 to 15 feet away and can honestly say that my eyes never came off the suspect. I could have had a smooth slide without any sights and wouldn’t have known the difference.
With that said, I agree with the article. You should be carrying whatever firearm you are most comfortable with. don’t go to a higher caliber unless u know u can are proficient. stay safe
Some of these comments have valid points. My personal opinion is for using a 45 ACP. That being said, I make the following observation. Departments and individuals tend to qualify once or twice a year with little or no regular firearms training. So I believe the answer to be simple……shoot what you train with and train with what you shoot. Calibers are not specific to an individual, their size, or gender. However, practice is.
I have a considerable amount of experience with the Glock 22, Glock 23, and Sig P226, all of which are .40 S&W caliber. Ballistically the .40 is superior to the 9mm but somewhat inferior to the .45 ACP. However I feel the .40 is a good balance of stopping power and control. Naturally, a 9mm is going to be the easiest of the three calibers to shoot accurately at a high rate of fire. However, I feel that the .40 can be easily controlled with good training and shooting technique with superior stopping power. Also, the .45 has more recoil than the other two calibers and weapons chambered for it have lower magazine capacities.
I personally like a 10mm. If a person can handle the recoil, it’s a good weapon. I’ve noticed that when I’d qualify with that weapon, my performance improved significantly from the .45ACP I was carrying. Ballistically, I worried about overkill. Meaning that I was worried about a shoot through and possibly injuring or killing someone behind my target. No one mentioned the 10mm here. What are your thoughts about that weapon?
Kevin: I think the 10mm is a fine weapon. I guess I tend toward the .45ACP and the 9mm just because they are so old and, in my opinion, well proven.
I tend to disagree with the statement that caliber doesn’t matter to the extent that I believe there are a collection of “acceptable” fighting calibers. While I do feel the 9mm is at the bottom end of that spectrum, I’d be okay with carrying a weapon in 9mm, 10mm, .40, .357Sig, .45GAP, .45ACP or .357Magnum (although I’m not much of a revolver guy).
I have mixed emotions about this issue. I am a full-time trainer, firearms instructor and 24+ year veteran officer. My humble opinion is that “most” agencies don’t allow NEARLY enough time for firearms training. Most across the U.S. (unless you happen to be on a Speacialy or SWAT Team)don’t shoot much more than the minimum required for officer certification. I think that, short of physical impairments, any person can learn to be proficient with ANY caliber if they are taught proper techniques, and if they practice those techniques enough to develop a higher skill level. The other factor in this whole issue is that “most” officers involved in on-duty shootings say in the post shooting investigation, “I never heard (or felt) the gun go off”. Tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, survival mindset, etc. all play a part in this. I guess this is a long-winded way of saying what we ALL know already and that is,,,”we fight like we train”, good or bad. The down side to this, and an inditement against us as instructors, is that we send people out ALL the time that barely make it through qualification and there’s no effort made to remediate or improve their skills, sometimes, again, controlled by those people that control the money. Enough of my babbling, just a few thoughts from an “old timer”.
A well placed shot is better than a regular shot any day, if you shoot 95% with the 9mm stick with it if you can pick off a fly at 30 yds with a 50 cal. pistol hey by all means… but then again like my father always said about opinions there like @$$ holes, every one has one and they all stink
I don’t agree that aim fails in critical incidents, at least not if you’ve put in the work. I was involved in a shooting (back when I shot .357 magnums out of a 686), and all four rounds could be covered by a 3×5 index card. My shiftmate, shooting a .38, had a nearly identical group, mostly because our Sgt. was relentless about accuracy training. Although I always shot magnums, when I switched to the auto, I went with the Glock 17 because of comfort and accuracy. I just can’t get a consistent presentation with a 21 because of the grip size. I decided that having 17 rounds that I knew I could tack drive with was more comforting than worrying that I might send one flying because my panicked grip wasn’t perfect. I also have a model 22 that I enjoy, since the grip is identical to my 17. Bottom line, if you shoot it well enough, you’ll get the job done, and you’ll win.
Good issue Frank. My stance has always been that you carry the weapon that you have the utmost confidence in; the weapon that you can shoot and function blindfolded if necessary. Carrying a weapon into combat that you are not proficient with, or that you do not have complete faith in, will get you hurt or killed.
There are some slick,trick wheel guns out there in the .357. You can find them in 7 or even 8 shot cylinders. 8 rounds of .357 would put some serious hurt on.